multi-billion dollar Burke. ... 10 ships sunk and 25 ships damaged. of armor ensures that weapon expenditure by the enemy to do so will be surface groups but the pickets are going to be unarmed and unarmored. [1] Death and ship losses became commonplace by the conclusion of Okinawa with Fifth Fleet’s medical department pointedly stating in the battle’s After Action Report that, “Ship casualties occur quickly and heavily, human bodies and steel ships fall apart. www.navweapons.com has good info on all the oto melara 40mm mounts. strikes against unresisting targets that we’ve come to believe that peer warfare Suicide pilots came to realize this and attempted to mitigate the effectiveness of CAPs by synchronizing their attacks to take place during evening twilight after the dusk CAP had departed for base. If there were 30 armed versions, then maybe 10 of these. station of 5000 yds radius. Navy leaders even began describing them as a primitive guided missile, with one noting, “[The] percentage of hits is higher because the missile [emphasis added] is aimable right up to the point of impact.”[24] Although it would be many years before self-guided anti-ship missiles became a reality, kamikaze attacks gave Navy planners a clear idea of just how severe a problem this technology (along with commensurate improvements to aircraft) would pose for any Navy fleet. Saturation – The Kamikaze U.S. Built and tested in the 1980’s by Skunk Works, it was a successful design. I understand and, without a doubt, there is much to like about the Visby. Especially with the distances involved. Consider I'm slapping my gray matter around as we speak.Do you think the L3 Harris vessel would function with your layout?https://www.marinetechnologynews.com/news/awards-unmanned-vessel-contract-604107. Of course, the DLF-3B Inflatable Decoy Canisters that I mentioned previously should be used extensively. The Navy The fast carriers were for the first time to be available at the target area for a prolonged period to furnish support and combat air patrols. Both US and China are exploring how to use unmanned ships. engagement and fighter direction assistance. Before then, however, they would have to endure one of the most brutal battles of the war. The Italians have a nice 40mm CIWS. Toss in recessed chaff/flare dispensers and viola.Such USV’s could also help protect other vessels in other situations. CAP was additionally buttressed by the carriers’ ability to operate longer at sea at Okinawa than in any previous campaign. As you recall from previous posts, the Navy intends to So, what does the Okinawa Kamikaze and picket ship scenario unarmored, they’ll die quickly and easily. Let me know if you come across any. Specifically, it’s the battle for Okinawa and the role of the Kamikaze Spruance was given authority to establish when the point of transition took place but, even so, inter-service rivalries needed to be set aside to achieve victory. Same goes for SeaRAM. the Kamikaze pilots and this put them at a huge disadvantage. The A-400 was a ship the rest of the world expects. Vol. She was sunk by a kamikaze aircraft off Okinawa on 22 April 1945. The F125 is one of the largest and most expensive frigates in the world and is underarmed for the size and cost. On board Wasp (CV-18), for example, a five-deck fire caused by a bomb explosion on 19 March was extinguished within 15 minutes, allowing the ship to resume flight operations after it had been hit. CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa — A plaque looted from a World War II destroyer sunk off Okinawa has been returned, but the mystery surrounding its disappearance remains. radar, to a degree) aimed and fuzed to a marginally successful degree. [26] E.B. rendered completely inoperative and that was from a waterline collision, not a The first, and most numerous, would be those as you described. We not going to put an AEGIS on board so my guess is as soon as Chinese pick up the signals of an TRS or SPS-49: "HEY LOOK , there's the American picket line!" Given the spherical nature of aerial explosions, 50% of the debris will be coming back at us at high velocities thus rendering Doppler effects confused or useless. Is the Hornet/AMRAAM effective against missiles? What was the overall result of the kamikaze attacks? Of course, I would ensure the proper software be included so that all of these would be able to also hit surface targets.Off the side would be two Mark 32 Mod. Additionally, the composition and tactics of the radar pickets were adjusted to work more efficiently. The carriers were Franklin, Enterprise, Wasp, and Randolph. in modern engagements. Such tenacity would help them to overcome an enemy ready to fight until the bitter end and earned Fifth Fleet the moniker, “The Fleet that Came to Stay.”. This one operation used 2-3 times more ships than the entire current US It does indeed have two engine rooms.The German Navy really underarms it's ships and doesn't like sonar or even medium range missiles. On 16 April 1945, Laffey (DD-724) endured six kamikaze attacks and four hits by … Naval analysis provided by ComNavOps, Commander - Naval Opinions. See, Escorts"If unmanned pickets can be made to work, they could free up crewed ships to reinforce critical areas and allow them to maneuver in order to respond to new threats. their mistakes? The picket ships were For instance, Japan's Yamato battle ship became a strategic blunder as air carriers had become key in navy battles.For today's superpowers, Reconnaissance becomes the most important part as they have many ways to attack once they can locate and track the other side's ships. If you need 3 or 4 to guarantee a hit, you're run out pretty quickly in a saturation attack. 15 launchers containing six Mark 46 torpedoes, for ASW.Radars would include the APAR multifunction X-Band 3D Radar, due to the decent range, excellent targeting ability, relatively small size and already being designed to support the ESSM. Royal’s arrays were reportedly rendered inoperative when it gently nosed establish a ring of radar picket ships around the island and the invasion fleet If we can't build a Visby for a lot less that $1B, or even half that, then we have serious procurement problems. So that makes not only more numerous point defense systems, but armor even more relevant. I know, that doesn’t make sense but I’ll explain. for additional AA firepower. The fierce nature of the fighting and appalling numbers of casualties taken by U.S. forces continued into June, with the total number of American casualties reaching 49,151, of which 12,520 were killed or missing. We need to make a doctrinal decision about how we want our ships to 'present' themselves to an attack. But impose some discipline and I think you could bring it in a lot less. Their ships suffered equally, with 36 ships sunk and more than 350 more sustaining varying degrees of damage. "Of course, fitting the weapons would negate some of the stealthiness which would suggest some sort of stealth 'pods' for the weapons to be mounted inside and exposed when firing. A kamikaze spirit permeated the entire Navy."[20]. [10] USS Laffey, “Report of operations in support of the invasion of the Okinawa Gunto, Ryukyu Islands, 3/25/45-4/22/45, including enemy bombing & suicide plane attack on 4/16/45 & AA actions,” 42A. The Navy should be exercising this all out to see what works best but I see no signs that they're even thinking about it. Even the Are there any other solutions to that problem, that you can see? "[2] Present for parts of the battle, historian Samuel Eliot Morison actually witnessed kamikaze attacks firsthand. We need to alter our ship design philosophy underwater and ‘mission killed’ by a single aircraft. is nearly non-existent. I had forgotten about that one but, yes, I'm somewhat familiar with it. You are definitely a fan of the SeaRAM/Phalanx, as am I. This was demonstrated time and again in WWII Some of my colleagues at the lab and I had a meeting (aka, a group of computer nerds having lunch in the meeting room with this article broadcast onto the board) and came up with some ideas that you may be interested in. The Heywood L. Edwards survived this campaign and the war. With six eyeballed aimed guns firing 33 rounds a second each, that will put a wall of bullets in missile paths. medium (rocket) (LSM(R)), But, unlike WWII, where most of the pickets were pointed towards Japan, Okinawa today would need 360° coverage given the range of today's weapons and the ability to deliver them. “For example, we should have much more extensive, physically distributed EO/IR sensors tied into the fire control system as well as a separate, technologically dissimilar type of radar as a backup to the Aegis arrays. When word publicly leaked during the campaign of inter-service quibbling, Nimitz immediately stepped in and put the matter to rest. Later on, we learned that Russian sailors were so poorly trained, and their maintenance was so bad, that most of those guns and missiles probably didn’t work, but I wouldn’t count on that from the Chinese. this ship had been in only one action before, namely the approach to the beaches during the invasion of okinawa. I think it’s time has come.https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/sea-shadow.html. "if you're going to use the task force subs to guard the pickets, then you're wasting a lot of capability that could be more useful elsewhere. Citing COMTASKFLOT Five, Okinawa Report, 20 Jul. operation. battles will involve a significant degree of attrition. Okinawa was a major battle for both the US and Japan. Even after much thought, I cannot add to or dispute any of what you wrote. But I agree, hitting a fast moving missile head on will be difficult. Forget about future growth, these would have 25yr lifespan, designed to be replaced with then-current and proven tech in 20 yrs!! So relatively old tech. [18] On the flip side, it also showed that such an “extended period at sea took its toll from both ships and men.” Machinery was not designed for such long continuous combat steaming. One of the major So 4 SeaRAM, 4 CIWS and 4 quad MK 57 VLS (got to get something out of the research cost of the Zumwalt's) for 64 ESSM's on the smallest hull you can ideally WW2 Destroyer escort size?I would hope modern off the shelf power plants would allow decent speed and size while being smaller than those used in WW2 era DE's to leave enough displacement for all the sensors.Does that sound about right? —Richard Hulver, Ph.D. & Martin R. Waldman, Ph.D., historians, NHHC Histories and Archives Division. We absolutely must come to terms with this During the course of the battle, Japan II (Washington, DC: Fleet Marine Force Reference Publication 12-109-II, 1991), 1084. Kamikaze strikes and a couple of bomb hits. We need smaller and cheaper, and lots of them. That requires arming them with short/medium AAW weapons and building Vol. I have wondered why the costly mechanics located below the dome were allowed to be exposed to the elements. warning and no early engagement. vulnerabilities. I don't know about Umkhonto versus ESSM, but that's another swap I'd look into. and Korea where munition expenditures far exceeded predictions. If we're going to conduct a major amphibious operation (or somehow support ground combat in a major way) then we need LOTS of ships, meaning lots of carriers so that we don't have to choose between supporting the ground element or protecting the naval element and pickets. and damaging 18 others. [27] Spruance to Moore, 13 May 1945. Have you come across any? Discussion of the Visbys prompts me to ask, why is it that the USN seems so committed to building ships that are undergunned? campaign. Donald Gary led a number of his fellow Sailors to safety through smoke-filled corridors and further braved hazardous conditions to raise steam in one of the ship’s firerooms. [5] In addition to the large attacks, smaller attacks harassed U.S. ships on a daily basis, usually at dawn or dusk. support (large) (LCS(L)) The radar picket system was established to provide early Just as astounding to us, today, was the magnitude of the People enjoyed past glorious victories could refuse change. He indicated in the letter a wish that the Marines would have been the only ground force used. See this Chinese unmanned ship - smallest ship with AESA radar and VLS which can launch several different missiles. Been looking at a bunch of videos from Armenian Azerbaijani conflict, not sure if its bad training or what but its not looking good for ground crews of Russian SAMs on either side really, they getting wasted bad. The only good options I see is to mount six small .50 cal (12.7mm) gatling guns on the rails on each side. Swallow earned two battle stars for World War II service. "I find it hard to believe that a 3000 ton ship sets the low end of the price range for a 600 ton ship"Well, here's another data point: the JHSV (Spearhead) costs $180-$200M per and that's a non-stealthy, aluminum, ferry with no radar, weapons, sonar, or any of the other things you'd like. make losses ‘acceptable’. our entire present day fleet and that was just the force for a single The Okinawa picket ships problem. And I talked about giving up the VDS and towed array in exchange for a better AAW radar. Photographed by Ensign H.F. Barrett. no evidence, whatsoever, that the unmanned vessels can effectively carry out And, ASW defenses would be equally important as one or two SSGNs could get close and launch a sneak attack. escorts being unarmed. establish a ring of radar picket ships around the island and the invasion fleet We desperately need to Okinawa, alone, Another aspect that I didn't explicitly mention was the CAP engagement time and effectiveness. Okinawa picket ships were all armored to varying degrees. Try these fictional posts: Here are some posts that ComNavOps considers to be the best in terms of information presented, originality, and relevance. Staring them down, as they were staring us down, in the eastern Med in the fall of 1973, and realizing that our two twin 3-inch mounts would not stand up well against the array of guns and missiles that bristled from them, was not a reassuring feeling, trust me. That's why I've been trying to educate people to the need for 30 escorts or so for a carrier group. modern guided missile in terms of destructive impact. launched 10 large scale kamikaze attacks against the US Navy Fifth Fleet They’ll be Further, the dynamic of the Kamikaze and the picket ships gives us The Aegis arrays are large, exposed targets and likely to be seriously damaged and degraded from almost any hit.”This is a big reason why I favor putting the APAR/EMPAR/SAMPSON and SMART-L/S-1850 combination on our mini-Burke escorts. The Okinawa pickets were located 20-80 miles (mostly 50-80 miles) from Only if You may quote material on this web page as long as you cite American Merchant Marine at War, www.usmm.org, as the source. The pickets succeeded in their [23] Hatsuho Naito, Thunder Gods: The Kamikaze Pilots Tell Their Story (New York: Kodansha International Ltd., 1989), 16. The result was increased naval casualties. The Swedes built them for $184MM. So if this line isn’t moving within five days we’ll get someone here to move it so we can all get out from under these stupid air attacks.”[26] Spruance expressed similar frustrations in a letter written to his former chief of staff the day after New Mexico was hit by a kamikaze. Let's bump that up to $250MM apiece. Experience Radar Pickets and Methods of Combating Suicide Attacks Off Okinawa”, https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/b/battle-experience-radar-pickets.html, (5)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Military_losses. "it can still operate should Aegis get knocked out or jammed. It really makes one wonder about SAM effectiveness by manufacturers, these aren't that old or obsolete so why they getting killed so bad by drones?!? Japan's Terrifying Okinawa Plan: Lots of Kamikaze Strikes. Although the forces involved were under the overall command of Nimitz, CINCPOA, it was Spruance, Fifth Fleet commander, who would actually lead the Central Pacific Force in making the assault. For the first time in the Navy’s history, the number of dead exceeded the number of wounded in a campaign. (5)  From Wikipedia: At Lacking any sort of air cover, the task force would be woefully exposed to incoming air attacks from U.S. forces. At least some of the senior officers considered this plan ill-conceived, believing it to be far more effective to go out individually and attack the enemy supply lines until their luck ran out. Again, the Navy envisions completely I was wondering what your vessel would look like. facing supersonic or high subsonic missiles, those are the kinds of distances I don't know what, if anything, has been added over the years but the delivered ship was pretty minimal with the lack of AAW being particularly noticeable. saturation attacks. Make the picket/escort a missile 'sponge' by enhancing its radar signature thereby attracting the missiles rather than letting them pass by to attack the core group.This all gets back to AAW/escort doctrine and how you want to defend. Unfortunately, just "drawing my mind back to the need for tenders and depot ships. For today’s Navy, the Battle of Okinawa is a stark reminder of the importance of integrated American naval power, the necessity of conducting effective joint operations, and the value of being able to learn in real time. The picket doesn't need to be an anti-ship platform.What do you think a 'fully tricked out' Visby would cost the US? VLS numbers are large, and quad packing makes the missile inventory numbers of ships to stand up to high end saturation attacks and to compensate for sunk While the radar pickets acted as the fleet’s sacrificial lambs, the combat air patrols served as its primary defensive weapon against the attacks. [5] Vincent O’Hara, “Operation Iceberg’s Mixed Legacy,” Naval History, April 2020, 16. I do like the fore/aft redundancy although I'm not sure how extensive that redundancy really is. As we stated earlier, being unarmed and @ComNavOPAre you familiar with the AIR-2 genie weapon system?I feel a similar weapon system would merit as a defensive weapon in a missile saturation attack. Fifth Fleet engaged in more than two months of sustained combat against a battle-weakened enemy who employed desperate, non-conventional tactics to mitigate U.S. military superiority. Thus, I would like to remove that idea from your consideration.What we came up with was the use of two different but mutually supporting picket USV’s. Obviously, the (4)  This is a The success of these efforts (and the challenges in achieving them) were not only instrumental in securing Okinawa, but also provide a model case study for how to conduct joint operations. The Navy’s answer to the kamikaze saturation attacks was to increase the number of sensors (redundancy) and types of sensors on our ships. While such a weapon would be effective against massed missiles (or aircraft), the downside of venturing onto the slippery nuclear slope is obvious.The concept of dealing with a mass of targets using a single weapon is valid, however. Official U.S. Navy photograph now in the collections of the National Archives, 80-G-320987. Spruance received an early taste of what was to come on 31 March when a diving kamikaze clipped his flagship Indianapolis, severely damaging her with a bomb as it splashed into the sea. a modern high subsonic (assume 500 mph), anti-ship missile that would, expendable. And I'm not sure that a 600T hull can be a viable platform for a TRS-3D/4D. We must heavily arm During the launch of strikes against Honshū and Kobe Harbor, Franklin (CV-13) was hit by two bombs from a Japanese dive bomber. Even more remarkably, she suffered more casualties (796 killed, 265 wounded) than any other ship during the war, save Arizona (BB-39). assess the concept? They would not, however, be using them to conduct conventional air campaign, but rather, to act as human-guided missiles against U.S. forces. It also had a bow thruster so could lose both props and still move. Additionally, some 700 American aircraft were lost in operations at Okinawa. Future naval warfare will, without a doubt, feature massive, kamikazes penetrated the combat air patrol shield on April 6, sinking six ships THIS ACTION WAS THEREFORE THE FIRST REAL ACTION ENCOUNTERED BY 90 PERCENT OF THE CREW. "Agreed, but I'd double up on the ESSMs. To ensure the smooth functioning of this arrangement, clear delineations between Army and Navy commands needed to be established particularly since the campaign would eventually shift from an amphibious focus to the ground war. If an enemy submarine wants to announce it's presence by torpedoing a cheap, small, unmanned picket vessel (assuming we don't turn it into an ASW-bulked up Burke) then that's great. We've always assigned subs to carrier groups because it's a good use of subs. perform picket duty and dive when threatened. If unmanned pickets can be made to work, they could free up crewed ships to reinforce critical areas and allow them to maneuver in order to respond to new threats. My proposed cruiser would be Des Moines sized, with a large central area for launching and recovering small UAV, UUV, and USV. Considering the lack of even proper navigation and seamenship of late... "The world wonders?...". but only some of these were ready in time to serve off Okinawa. Just as the U.S. Navy adjusted on the fly, the Japanese transition towards suicide tactics represented a last ditch adjustment to their war effort. You can Google the web and find that China is actively pursuing this front.Technologies have advanced, people refuse to use smartphones could end up with lots of inconveniences. "Bear in mind the speed differential between a missile (many ARMs are supersonic) and the ship. (2). like the LCS, the Navy has already committed to the design and acquisition of a The Okinawa pickets clearly demonstrated the value of armor. [16] This flexibility came as a result of improved underway replenishments. Available on Fold3.com. Of course, I realize that's kind of a gimme putt. reality because it drives our ship design sensor and weapons density, fire A mixture of ships with different capabilities meant each picket had to alter their group tactics when under attack. Wounds are frequently destructive, mutilating, and fearfully mortal. The US Navy is building a fleet of small unmanned vessels to Victory at Okinawa cost more than 49,000 American casualties, including about 12,000 deaths. 334 U.S. But the Lericis were 600 tons and the Ospreys were 900 tons. Indeed, that very night, two U.S. submarines had reported Yamato group’s movements. Since 1944, the IJN had been developing and training crews to man explosive-laden suicide craft such as the Shinyo-class motorboats and Kaiten submarines. Chester Nimitz Papers, NHHC Archives. "What's more useful than protecting a carrier group, surface group, or amphib group?! The Navy’s vision of small even larger, we’ve shown that the number of VLS weapons that are actually For one thing, it is probably too small to be trekking across the Pacific, or even Atlantic, so it may not fit our deployment needs. "why is it that the USN seems so committed to building ships that are undergunned? Beyond that, the number of close in weapons For example, the first attack consisted of wounded. By the engagement’s end, an estimated 3,665 Japanese sailors had lost their lives (including roughly 2,500 on board Yamato) compared to only 12 U.S. If we have more sub tasks than subs then we need to build more subs instead of allowing our sub fleet to dip into the 40s, as we're doing. Kamikazes, Corsairs, and Picket Ships: Okinawa, 1945 by Robin L. Rielly Casemate, 2008, 435 pages. "No they didn't! Each attack consisted of hundreds of aircraft. (3). I'm not that familiar with it. Mr. Iwasaki is a systems engineer who lives in Kobe, Japan, and who became fascinated as a teenager with the Japanese merchant ships of World War II — four-fifths of which were sunk … I don't mean to imply that I think the Visby is perfect. "Okay, so let's give them six ASW helos, a flight deck, a powerful hull mounted sonar, a VDS, a towed array, VL-ASROC, triple torpedo tubes, an undersea combat control software suite, ASW command and control centers, sonar consoles and operators, and P-8 control and communications facilities. Of course there is Not only will the unmanned vessels be quickly eliminated but the absence Nimitz biographer E.B. Their ships suffered equally, with 36 ships sunk and more than 350 more sustaining varying degrees of damage. Nimitz visited Okinawa on 23 April and toured the island with Spruance, Marine General Alexander Vandergrift, and Buckner. concern for us, today, given that our smallest surface ship is the The second would be an unarmed, radar reflective stealth ship. Potter, Nimitz (Annapolis, Md: Naval Institute Press, 1976), Nimitz, 374. "At 1500T, it's also 2-1/2 times as big as the Visby. the center of the defended area. Many ships have a single Even the ships that would make up today’s core group have very limited If a group (carrier, surface, or amphib) is big enough to warrant an extensive picket system such as the post discusses, what else will it have? “Buster” Campbell. The lack of a hangar and embarked helo is also a potential weakness depending on the mission.

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